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Editing Report #5a

Saturn Ring Blues
It's really too soon for another editing report, but it occurred to me, while looking through today's batch of submissions, that the vast majority (maybe 75%?) of the submissions are from people who indicate they've sold fiction somewhere else before.  Occasionally I'll get a story from someone who has been published in one of the bigger venues, but almost all the other publishing credits are from the small press.

What I find interesting about this is I'd written an article some time ago about the slush pile ("Perseverance, Publishing and the Urge to Write") where I suggested that a significant portion of stories in the slush pile are written by authors who submit one work, are rejected, and then give up.  I encouraged writers to persevere, which I still think is the best advice I can give, but my slush pile leads me to believe that a much of the slush pile is from previously published folks who are still working at writing and sending stuff out.

I wonder if my slush pile is odd.  Perhaps it is because the way someone could find out about the anthology would be through channels only folks who already have some knowledge about publishing would be paying attention to, like Ralan.com or the mystery/horror writers' bulletin boards.  Realms of Fantasy, Analog or Asimov's, however, are highly visible and a first time author might send a story their way, not realizing there were other markets.  Besides, they might be following the good advice most experienced writers give, which is to submit from the top down.

Hmmm.  I don't have a conclusion to make from this observation, but it is interesting to me that there's this roiling of submissions in the slush piles of writers who have already sold work and are continuing to market their wares.  There's a significant subculture of writers who have sold work only to tiny markets, many of them (but not all!) trying to make a movement up.

 Oh, I've received around 50 more manuscripts since I posted fifteen days ago.

I think it would be fun to find out how many times writers were rejected before their first manuscript sold.  For me, I started submitting work in the early 80s, although it wasn't very many pieces in those first years (maybe just a handful of submissions a year?--I'll have to look it up), but I didn't make my first sale of any kind until 1987 or so, which was a poem to Star*Line, the official magazine of the Science Fiction Poetry Association.  So, my number of rejections before my first sale was, I'd guess, 30.  I didn't sell my first story until 1990, but I'd started submitting heavily in 1988, so I'll bet I'd been bounced 150 times by then.

How many rejects did you have before you sold your first piece?
 
 
 

Comments

( 36 comments — Leave a comment )
saycestsay
Aug. 28th, 2007 02:48 am (UTC)
I've only been tracking since 10/2002, my determined foray into the abyss of publication
Hmm, 13 rejections for stories sent before or on the same date as the first one that sold. The first one that sold was sold on the second submission. Then eighteen months or so before the next sale. It's tough to read the rejections.
saycestsay
Aug. 28th, 2007 02:49 am (UTC)
Re: I've only been tracking since 10/2002, my determined foray into the abyss of publication
Most of the slush coming into Abyss&Apex and into Noctem Aeternus list prior credits, btw.
jimvanpelt
Aug. 28th, 2007 04:23 am (UTC)
Re: I've only been tracking since 10/2002, my determined foray into the abyss of publication
I think that previous credit thing is interesting. I wonder if some of them fluff up their publishing credits a bit.
saycestsay
Aug. 28th, 2007 05:22 am (UTC)
Re: I've only been tracking since 10/2002, my determined foray into the abyss of publication
I am *certain* some authors fluff up their credits by adding every thing published ever... and that's okay, it helps them with their self-image and has no impact on my reading of their stories.
tchernabyelo
Aug. 28th, 2007 09:20 am (UTC)
Re: I've only been tracking since 10/2002, my determined foray into the abyss of publication
I think I'd only mention about four markets, the "most prestigious" I've sold to (currently, by odd coincidence, I can quote exactly four markets). Once I have more sales, I'll just quote "I have had work published in W, X, Y and Z, among others".

I would never dream of having claimed to sell to a market if I hadn't done so. That way madness lies.

The one thing I never know whether I should put in a cover letter is that the magazine I'm subbing to has published me before. I did once try a "you were kind enough to publish a story of mine..." and it just sounded wrong, so I gave up.
jimvanpelt
Aug. 28th, 2007 12:10 pm (UTC)
Re: I've only been tracking since 10/2002, my determined foray into the abyss of publication
I put something like "beside appearances in (name of the magazine I'm submitting to), I've also published in . . . .
jimvanpelt
Aug. 28th, 2007 05:23 pm (UTC)
Re: I've only been tracking since 10/2002, my determined foray into the abyss of publication
Another facet of this I find interesting is that I've been hanging around the short fiction market for a while and have a pretty good idea of what is available out there, but many of the writers list multiple publications I've never heard of. Certainly my having heard of a market doesn't give it any stamp of quality, but it seems weird to me that I know nothing of them at all!
bdkellmer
Aug. 28th, 2007 02:49 am (UTC)
23, as I just recently sold my first piece...
jimvanpelt
Aug. 28th, 2007 04:23 am (UTC)
Congrats!!
saycestsay
Aug. 28th, 2007 05:23 am (UTC)
Congrats! That first one is sooooo sweet.
ullikummis
Aug. 28th, 2007 03:19 am (UTC)
94, you guys make me feel like such a slob...
jimvanpelt
Aug. 28th, 2007 04:22 am (UTC)
I read an article in Writer's Digest by an unpublished writer who had heard you needed 100 rejections before you made a sale, so she sent out her stories, but instead of getting rejected, they sold. It continued in mock-tragic tones about how no matter how she tried, she couldn't rack up 100 rejections. The pieces kept selling!

I hated her.
ullikummis
Aug. 28th, 2007 01:55 pm (UTC)
So, that's what I was doing wrong!
I was trying to make a sale when I should have been trying to get rejected.
Grrrrrrrr, now you tell me.
albionidaho
Aug. 28th, 2007 03:27 am (UTC)
3 rejections. The first sale was written specifically for the anthology, so it was bought its first time out. (Uh, thank goodness since it was a themed anthology.)
jimvanpelt
Aug. 28th, 2007 04:21 am (UTC)
Three! Argh. *g*
albionidaho
Aug. 30th, 2007 03:19 pm (UTC)
And it was pure luck :).
dsgood
Aug. 28th, 2007 04:31 am (UTC)
Analog and Asimov's might not be as visible as you think. It's been a while since I was able to find them in Minneapolis. And this is a city with two sf bookstores.

A while ago, the distributor who served Uncle Hugo's and Dreamhaven decided (without telling customers) to stop carrying those magazines. The bookstore owners didn't consider it worthwhile to arrange for other ways of getting copies to sell. Borders also stopped carrying them.

Shinders News (a local chain) did have them. However, the owner of Shinders apparently spent money which should have gone to pay the business's bills on drugs and guns. The stores are now closed.

Barnes & Noble had them, but no longer does.
jimvanpelt
Aug. 28th, 2007 04:22 pm (UTC)
That's true about visibility, although I can still find both (and F&SF) at our Borders and Barnes and Noble newsstand. It's not like when I could buy Analog at every grocery store like when I was a kid.

It may be that I was just flat out wrong about a lot of authors giving up after one submission. There may be a lot who quit after a bunch of submissions if they never sell.
ericjamesstone
Aug. 28th, 2007 04:55 am (UTC)
I think I had somewhere between four and eight rejections before my first sale.
jimvanpelt
Aug. 28th, 2007 04:23 pm (UTC)
Argh! Another quick study *g*.

I may have to just admit that I have a shallow learning curve.
kmarkhoover
Aug. 28th, 2007 05:18 am (UTC)
I can't remember exactly (I didn't keep records back then) but I would guess it was around the tenth story or so. Fifteen tops.
david_de_beer
Aug. 28th, 2007 07:51 am (UTC)
hmm, I didn't really keep track too well, but it was about 5 or 6 rejections; 6 months from when I started subbing to a sale.
course, I had very odd notions about the industry then, such as if a story fails one place it's not good at all.
or, you only need to get that first sale to break in- that's not true (it's not even true for a couple of pro short sales!). I was lucky to begin with: 6 months to 1st sale; 4 more in 3 months, and then over a year before the next one!
So, I'm basically normalizing now.
(I have yet to sell a story after one rejection on it, which is a bit of a worry to me).

you know, there's a huge turnaround in venues as well; and if someone really puts in an effort you can easily get a sale somewhere. Which is maybe why your pile looks like as published as it does, I don't know.

Over the two years that I've been doing this, I've sort of shortlisted a group of markets, ones that I like, ranging from pro to smaller venues. I keep an eye on anthos, but those are my markets, and the only ones that I'm interested in selling at.
but, everyone has different takes on the biz so..
david_de_beer
Aug. 28th, 2007 07:53 am (UTC)
Didn't Ray Bradbury take a 1000 subs? good enough reason to realize "quickness" is a whole lot of luck and buggerall indication of future ability.
jimvanpelt
Aug. 28th, 2007 04:40 pm (UTC)
David Marusek ("We Were Out of Our Minds With Joy") told me that if any of his pieces didn't sell the first or second time out, he quit submitting it, but he's unusual that way. Most folks circulate a piece quite a bit longer. As long as I can find a market, I never quit sending it.
tchernabyelo
Aug. 28th, 2007 09:14 am (UTC)
I submitted my first story to any market in October 2005. In June 2006, it was accepted. At IGMS, paying pro rates.


Sadly, it's been mostly downhill since then... three other sales, none at pro rates. 77 rejections as well.


I'm certainly not convinced there are many writers who submit once, get a reject, and never try again. I know of people who've been subbing for twenty years and have never had a story accepted; I find myself dumbstruck by that level of persistence, which requires a self-belief I can't comprehend. But most writers do have a core ego that makes them convinced their stuff IS worth publishing/reading, and that keeps them going through the lean times.
carnwrite
Aug. 28th, 2007 12:08 pm (UTC)
I submitted my first story on January 29, 2003 and made my first sale on September 1, 2006. Between those two milestones, 122 rejections! I made 3 sales in rapid succession after that first one, but it's been about 7 months since the last one, which means I need to write and submit more!
(Anonymous)
Aug. 28th, 2007 12:30 pm (UTC)
In a classic case of deflated hopes, I sold the first story I wrote to Paradox magazine, and then proceeded to rack up about 50 to 60 rejections before my next sale a couple years later. That was cruel, I thought. CMO
jimvanpelt
Aug. 28th, 2007 12:52 pm (UTC)
Ouch! You're right. The gap hurts.
snickelish
Aug. 28th, 2007 01:09 pm (UTC)
About 30 rejections for me as well, and then a longish gap of 80 or so rejections before my second sale.

Sarah
samhenderson
Aug. 28th, 2007 02:49 pm (UTC)
I had occasional submissions and even more occasional sales before I started taking writing/subbing seriously -- then once I buckled down and wrote some new stuff I make three sales -- Strange Horizons, The Fortean Bureau, and a vampire fiction market in one weekend. Then I had a looooong wait before I had another acceptance. I wonder if I would have stuck with it if I hadn't received that very lucky boost right off the bat.
(Anonymous)
Aug. 28th, 2007 03:48 pm (UTC)
I've been extremely fortunate so far: My first submission was to a themed antho and it sold. Same for my second submission - themed antho - sold. Since then, 3 rejections on a flash piece, which is my only story floating about.

May try for Hard Boiled Horror - love the concept.

Kevin Lightburn
madwriter
Aug. 28th, 2007 04:09 pm (UTC)
For short stories
Hmmm--I wrote a few short stories in 1996, garnered a few rejections, didn't realize how many more magazines were out there at the time, and stopped. I resumed short story writing in 2004 and made two sales almost right away--both of which were stories I'd written in '96.

There were several rejections after that, so for awhile I was fretting that I'd done all my best writing years before and couldn't sell anything I was writing now. :)
blogtiderising.wordpress.com
Aug. 28th, 2007 08:34 pm (UTC)
How many rejects? All of them. I haven't sold any fiction yet. I collected a handful of rejects in the late 70's and a few more in the late 90's. I got a reject earlier this month. Call it 10 so far. I think I have the mental and emotional stamina to be more persistent this time around. I have nothing out right now, but several are almost ready.
jimvanpelt
Aug. 28th, 2007 09:37 pm (UTC)
Good luck! My first submission was in elementary school in the 60s (I sent a poem to Scientific America, a magazine that NEVER publishes poetry).
(Anonymous)
Aug. 28th, 2007 09:02 pm (UTC)
I made my first sale (to Planet Relish) after 26 rejections. I've sold 16 stories to date now and the number of rejections between sales has fluctuated wildly (70 rejections in a row before my most recent sale). I don't know why that is. I'm also carrying a bit of a backlog from my early years of writing, but I've trunked most of those stories.

Jim, it could be that you're not getting a lot of first-time submitters in your slushpile because of the nature of those people who write one story then quit. It's possible there are plenty of first-timers who just noticed the posting for this anthology and are trying to meet your deadline, and they probably won't make it. I remember when I was first learning to write stories it would take me months before I was confident enough to put it in front of a Real Live Editor. Meeting deadlines when I didn't have a 6-month lead time, wasn't something I could do. I expect most of those first-timers are submitting to markets open year-round.

-Sarah Totton
jimvanpelt
Aug. 28th, 2007 09:35 pm (UTC)
Good points about first-timers. I think there is a kind of confidence in seeing a themed anthology and coming up with a story for it in the turn around time they have.

I've never really trunked a story. They keep circulating until they sell. I'm not even tinkering with them much or at all in between markets. Once I had a story that had been bounced from a lot of places, and several editors made the same comment, "Good story but a little slow." After, I don't know, ten years of rejections on the story I revised about two thousand words out of it, and it sold to the next market.
( 36 comments — Leave a comment )

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